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Rob730 Posted - 21/04/2011 : 14:55:52
This is something that realy buggs me about alot of the bigger festivals that i attend. Those strips of light bulbs that hang above the pathways that run through the camp sights are alomost allways without fail still on during the day. ive been told in the past that this is becouse of the way that they are hooked up to the gennys but its not very hard to wire in a switch. how can festivals encourage sustainability when they cant even be botherd to turn the lights off when there not being used. Rant over
15   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
gizmo_firemarshal Posted - 29/05/2012 : 16:31:06
but Energy saving CFL are bad for are planet and there cost any company with large amounts of them to be recycled
gizmo_firemarshal Posted - 29/05/2012 : 16:28:54
i know about load balancing and stuff , my day job is as a technical stage manager and i have just tryed to word it so people with a non technical background can read , the festoons i have Edison fittings but you can get them with other fittings there are infarct led products out there with warm color m same color quality as standard incandescent lights Phillips only released it on the 12th April thou and regarding taking the bulbs out of the festoons and putting them back in on each event is a task you wouldn't need to do with there bulb as the bulb is made from durable plastic and you could put it in the creates as is . it acts the same way a normal bulb works , i only mentioned festoon lighting because i know the flood lights are as you say expensive , also i am actually a genuine customer of Phillips so that's why i got that price
ginger_biscuit69 Posted - 29/05/2012 : 15:58:56
with festoons, they are lamped as they are put up, then delamped when packed down - the labour cost is irrevant. Never seen the lamps changed mid show either, H&S would forbid sitecrew taking a telehandler down pedestrian pathways/the odd blown lamp is no great concern - far more things to worry about.

Costing wise, you are looking at something more like £1.50/lamp trade account user of theirs at the sort of quantitys they would require. A manufactorer would never release true figures unless you were a genuine customer negotiating a real order. One company i work for buys filament lamps by the half container, at about 1.5p/lamp...

Last one is colour temperature, directivity and lumen output, filament lamps put out a nice gentle orange glow over a wide dispersion. LED's are very directional, and inherently bright white which is not pleasant. These edison type lamps [festoons are bayonette fitting btw] have a diode shining into the 'bowl', which acts as a diffuser, spreading the light out evenly and depending on lamp - the colour of the light. This in turn wastes energy. These LED 'bulbs' dont compare just yet, the type you are looking at are designed to light your living room, outside they would be lost.

Same as floodlights, the little 500w halogen floodlights similar to what you light your driveway with can be replaced by LED [still around £150 vs: £5 halogen], but the large floodlight with the discharge 250w lamps [1000w halogen equivilent] cannot be replaced with LED's cheaper than £1000/unit which isnt economical in an industry bartered down to the ground.

Energy saving CFL bulbs have started to be used, which are a realistic replacement when powered off the grid, but off a genset, still makes little difference to crysel consumption.

The solution i think is for the smaller demanding loads, such as festoon lighting and camping zones, is to embrace new technology such as these: http://www.fireflysolar.net/products. They are 4.5kva continuous = 3600w which would easily power festoons loaded with CFL lamps, leave on 24/7 or turn off during the day doesnt matter, the onboard battery banks keeps the output steady job done. These units were deployed at the Valley, powering LED floods on the showers and toilets, and CFL festoon runs all over site [then the crew camping post show when the arena gensets were taken away].

Problem with everything is budget, there are solutions out there, if people are prepared to spend the money on it. Fact of the matter is eco friendly solutions cost more, but promotors rarely will pay for this. If a festivals truely wants to be eco friendly they can, but ticket prices will go up = less punters = less/no profits. You cant expect the industry providing this kit who are already underpaid by overnegotiated greedy promotors to supply this stuff out of good will.

I hope they do find a solution, im not against it, its just being on the other side of the fence doing this work, i have a rather skewed view of the practicalities which the average punter doesnt even know exists.

[cba to explain: but festoons etc are also used for phase balancing large 3phase gensets to make them more efficient, look it up]
gizmo_firemarshal Posted - 29/05/2012 : 15:56:44
and also led bulbs are the way forward because the so called energy saving bulbs and quite a lot of discharge bulbs contain hazardous chemicals which are bad for the planet , and led bulbs are very durable they can take knocks or being dropped where standard bulbs (Incandescent Light bulbs) and Fluorescent (CFL energy saving bulbs) where they get damaged if knocked or dropped and Fluorescent (CFL energy saving bulbs) no matter what they say on the box they are not RoHS Compliant and also if they fail they may catch on fire, smoke, or omit an odor and also Contains TOXIC Mercury. A silvery-colored poisonous elemental metal that is liquid at room temperature.

also for those that don't know what RoHS compliant mean basically it is Reduction Of Hazardous Substances . The maximum concentration limits on hazardous materials used in electrical and electronic equipment. Enforced by the European Union.

and here is one random fact i found "If every U.S. household replaced just one standard 60 watt bulb with a LED bulb,we could save 24,184,400,000 watts or 24,184.4 mega (million) watts per day.

National savings information based on 103,000,000 households with an average use of
4 hrs per day per house. Based on gross watts. "
gizmo_firemarshal Posted - 29/05/2012 : 15:26:15
it would also reduce the carbon footprint as a standard bulb is 4405 pounds/year and a led bulb is 514 pounds/year
gizmo_firemarshal Posted - 29/05/2012 : 15:19:14
and say at a festival you had 1000 festoon lights with 60watt bulbs per campsite you would need a 150kva gen set to power the festoon lighting where if you used led festoon lighting you would only need a 12 kva gen set to power the festoon lighting, and that's even with headroom going on that you need double the spec of the Gennie for what your power outputs requirements are , but not taking into account everything else that has to be powered in a campsite
gizmo_firemarshal Posted - 29/05/2012 : 14:57:22
first led Edison bulbs are cost effective if they were to be used in festoon lighting, they have 40,000 lamp hours , compared to a standard light bulb which has 3000 lamp hours on average

they led Edison bulbs cost around £5 from Philips or osram for trade customers the same bulbs do retail at around £16 for domestic use but trade customers if they were to purchase a large number it would also reduce the cost further ,

standard light bulbs have almost been discontinued but cost around £0.60 at trade. you would have to change the bulb around 13 times compared to one led Edison bulb which for the standard bulb would cost them £7.20 if they used a standard bulb for 40,000 hours

the labor cost also to change the bulb say an electrician might earn around £13 to £16 pound an hour if we take £13 an hour , to fit an led bulb with take around 60 seconds would cost 21p and we already know if we used standard bulbs we would have to change the bulb 13 times to one led bulb which would be a cost of £2.81

doesn't sound like much but if you had say 100 led bulbs in labor cost to fit them would be £21 pounds and take around 1hrs and 40 min to do but compared to standard bulbs at 40,000 hours would cost in labor would be £273 and take 21hours to complete

so you could not only save on the cost of the bulb but on other things like labor costs, they also are very low in power on average around 9watts with 71 lumen per watt compared to standard 60watt bulb with about 12 lumens per watt

another thing to take into account is that Approximately 90% of the power consumed by a standard light bulb is emitted as heat, rather than as visible light.

also just got email Phillips regarding how much it could get the bulbs at trade if i brought 1000 and it came £3.68ex vat with a discount at 40% and to purchase one bulb would be £5.15 ex vat
ginger_biscuit69 Posted - 24/05/2012 : 13:17:59
outside of DC i do a lot of stage power things, and there is more too it than 'just turning off the lamps'.

Firstly, these generators need roughly a 10-20% CONSTANT static load to maintain a steady safe voltage, often using festoon [strings of lights] and other floods is the perfect way to manage this. This is due to other non static loads, such as a tea urn switching on and off, and variable loads such as stage lights flicking on and off, and audio amplification not being a constant loud note, cause the load on the generator to constantly adjust. If the load was purely dynamic, the generators control unit would have to constantly rev the engine RPM up and down to compensate for this changing requirement to it. This in turn can lead to equipment getting nasty voltage and current spikes. For instance, a tea urn needing 3000w @ 240V = 12.5A. When it switchs on, often the lights will dim temporarily, and if you are near the generator, you would hear it rev up. Temporarily the generator is not expecting this load, so as it switchs and the power is not there, the generator suddenly drops its output to say 200v while the engine has time to power up to cope with this. In this time, now the voltage is 200v, the current is 15A to the tea urn until the generator can catch up. On simple things like this, the extra power does no harm, nor will it blow a fuse as the time scale is shorter then the breaking curve of the fuse/MCB. Sensitive equipment however could get damaged by this undervoltage current surge, blowing the input stage of the device. This is a big problem for sensitive stage equipment, computer power supplies etc etc. But with this constant load, the generator is running at a healthier RPM, and the great big heavy flywheel is carrying literally tons of kinetic energy, so as the load is ramped - the energy in the flywheel and shear torque of the engine will smooth out any needs and supply a steady clean power supply. Also a large genset will use the same fuel regardless of no load up to around 50% load, makes sense to use that energy to make it a stable supply.

Next is efficiency of spec'ing genset size... In the stage industry, we would look to spec a generator of double the capacity of the calculated requirement, why? It once again comes down to efficiency. Like anything, you dont want to be ragging it to toilet. You dont want an undersized generator, working flat out - it will overheat or otherwise fail - same as you dont drive your car around at 5000rpm all the time...

LED lighting... Technology is only just getting to the point in which diodes are powerful enough to start replacing discharge lamps [the dazzling white ones], halogen have been obsolete for years and are largely replaced. Discharge lamps use large amounts of energy to strike, but once heated up will output around 4x more light than the equivilent halogen wattage lamp. LED floods are still very very expensive, and will take years yet to become at a price where they will become standard.

Hope this made sense, my brains melting a bit, but shall reread it later and edit anything aweful
Rory Posted - 31/08/2011 : 16:10:55
Originally posted by gizmo_firemarshal
instead of using the old fashioned screw in bulb festoons why dont they switch to LED festoon lighting and led floodlights which require less energy , bulbs last alot longer , and also produce more light

It looks like they might not have much choice in the matter as 60W incandecent bulbs are ceasing production!

Rory Posted - 30/08/2011 : 19:46:05
I took a look at the generator that was at the base of my tower at Reading this week and it was hugely overspecced. The ammeter numbers went up to 200A and when everything was on, it was only having to provide 40A. It was powering the festoons, the floods on the tower and toilets, the supermarket, burger van and managers office.

So you could save fuel quite easily.
Firstly by not using such a big generator, half the size would still have been ample!!!

And also by turning off the floods during the day, each flood has a 500W lamp and across site this really adds up.

- Each zone has a set of toilets: About 10 floods per block of toilets (5000W)
- Each zone has about 3 towers: 4 floods per tower (2000W); about 12 floods per zone (6000W)
- There are 7 zones so a total of 77000W

- If these were switched off for 10 hours during the day, for 5 days they would save a staggering 3850kWh of energy
- This is enough to boil 33772 litres of water or make 67544 slices of toast.

And I havent even added in the festoon lights into this, they're smaller but they'd soon add up!

These are all approximations and obviously not all the energy could be saved as some of the generators do need to be on during the day, but even they would save fuel due to the decreased load. And as I said before, fuel could easily be saved by using smaller generators in the first place.
gizmo_firemarshal Posted - 18/05/2011 : 01:14:35
also running a generator with no load or very little load ie by turning the lighting off can cause problems for the generator
gizmo_firemarshal Posted - 18/05/2011 : 01:05:54
instead of using the old fashioned screw in bulb festoons why dont they switch to LED festoon lighting and led floodlights which require less energy , bulbs last alot longer , and also produce more light
Jin Posted - 10/05/2011 : 13:40:47
I would imagine there to be a health and safety element to that, I know that if it were my equipment I wouldn't want an untrained person to so much as flick a switch. Though I have noticed that lighting stanchions in car parks are controlled presumably because they are standalone units which generate power solely for lighting.
Rob Posted - 09/05/2011 : 17:59:51
Couldn't the Zone Managers turn off the ones in their zones? They patrol the zone so it wouldn't be any new movement (and there on foot).
Rob730 Posted - 09/05/2011 : 15:24:59
Thankyou for a very informative post, i guess i had,nt realy considerd all the ins and outs of that one

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